Seen on the street in Kyiv.

Words of Advice:

"If Something Seems To Be Too Good To Be True, It's Best To Shoot It, Just In Case." -- Fiona Glenanne

“The Mob takes the Fifth. If you’re innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?” -- The TOFF *

"Foreign Relations Boil Down to Two Things: Talking With People or Killing Them." -- Unknown

“Speed is a poor substitute for accuracy.” -- Real, no-shit, fortune from a fortune cookie

"If you believe that you are talking to G-d, you can justify anything.” — my Dad

"Colt .45s; putting bad guys in the ground since 1873." -- Unknown

"Stay Strapped or Get Clapped." -- probably not Mr. Rogers

"The Dildo of Karma rarely comes lubed." -- Unknown

"Eck!" -- George the Cat

* "TOFF" = Treasonous Orange Fat Fuck, A/K/A Dolt-45,
A/K/A Commandante (or Cadet) Bone Spurs,
A/K/A El Caudillo de Mar-a-Lago, A/K/A the Asset., A/K/A P01135809

Tuesday, May 27, 2008

Battlestar Galactica and Technology

The question was raised at the Science of Battlestar Galactica as to whether a human population of 39,000 people is genetically viable. The answer would seem to be "yes," since at one point, the human population on this planet was down to 2,000 or so.

I think, however, the more significant question is whether a human population of 39,000 is technically viable at the level of technology shown in BSG. I think the answer is "no."

One of the hard facts of technology seems to be that the higher you go up the scale, the more work and the more people it takes to bring about the end result. A primitive hunter probably could knap out a flint point and strap it to a stick in very little time. A simple knife or sword may be as far up the technological scale that a single individual can proceed from ore to a finished product. The 16th Century gunsmiths who developed wheel locks and flintlocks were not mining their own ore nor smelting the iron.

By the time you get to revolvers, you're dealing with the need to have some sort of powered machining capability; it was no accident that the factories of the early gun makers were located next to rivers. You need carpenters to build the building, wheelsmiths to make the water wheels and/or turbines and then the rotation of those wheels has to be fed into the plant. You need farmers to raise the cattle and butchers and leather workers in order to make the belts to drive the machinery, which has to be made by other people. Meanwhile, other factories are making the gunpowder and the shot. Woodworkers have to make the stocks. And all the raw material for every factory along the way has to be transported, so you needed wagons and teams and railroads and ships, all of which in turn has to be supported. All of those people have to be housed, fed and clothed.

When you get up to 100 years ago, you now need precision machinery to make the fine parts and, since it costs so much to set up a machine to make a part, you make a lot of them at any one time. Move up to the modern era and now you need oil and petrochemical plants to make the plastics for many of the parts. Few people remember that, until the development of electrically-powered furnaces, it was so difficult to smelt aluminum ore into the metal that aluminum, pound for pound, was far more expensive than gold.

The same progression appears with electrical and electronic components. Wiring insulation used to be problematical, which is why knob & tube wiring was used from the earliest days of electricity. Electrical generation requires power plants, which have to be maintained. The distribution network has to be maintained. You need plants to make components and, as those plants become more and more sophisticated, you need more and more investment to build new ones. A modern semiconductor chip fabrication plant costs well over a billion dollars to build and equip, maybe several billion dollars. The costs of building plants are so high for some products that unless you can sell tens of millions of copies, it makes no sense to even try, which is probably why there are so few makers of LCD displays. If you were to blow up two or three strategic plants, you could probably shut down the electronic device manufacturing industries for months.

Hell, just look sometime at what effort it takes to mass-produce paper. Movable type was vital, but it was cheap paper that brought literacy to the masses in Europe.

39,000 people are not going to cut it in order to keep their technology running forever. I will bet that if you examined what it takes to make everything the Colonial Fleet has and uses, some critical skills are already nonexistent (or extinct). Which means that the Colonials will, sooner or later, have to start cannibalizing their ships to keep others running. If they settle on another world like New Caprica, they will have to cannibalize almost all of their ships in order to build a town and get the level of technology they are used to. Sooner or later, the last Mk.3574 Doomiflatcher will break down and everything that needs one of those to function will be useless. Worse, everything that needs what was made by the machine which used a Mk.3574 Doomiflatcher will be useless.

Assuming the Colonials settle on an uninhabited planet, which is likely, for they are in their 4th season and have met no sentient life other than the Cylons (a rarity in TV SF, by the way, only Firefly was like that), within two or three generations of landing, the Colonials will be at an Iron Age (or Stone Age) existence. They seem to have no farm or draft animals, they have encountered no life above plants on the livable worlds they have visited, so everything will have to be done by human power (which may result in the use of slaves) and the struggle for protein will be enormous. Their civilization will surely collapse.

Unless the Colonials can strike a deal with the Cylons, the Colonials as a society are doomed.

10 comments:

BadTux said...

I've been thinking about this, and the problem is that you are assuming industrial technology. However, access to smart reprogrammable self-reproducing nanotechnology may render this technology level consideration moot. When you can whip up nanobots to build a new Flogamajitz out of raw rocks using just a beaker and a programming probe, suddenly you don't need a civilization of millions to build a Flogamajitz. When a soup of nanobots can be programmed to build your mill for you and build the wheel to grind your grain for you, suddenly you don't need carpenters and ironworkers and masons and such to start grinding grain in an automated fashion.

Now, granted, BSG may not have nanotechnology and thus you are correct that the Colonials are doomed. I haven't watched BSG so I have no idea. But an advanced technological civilization of the future (assuming such a thing exists) doesn't necessarily need a billion people in order to keep it going, if there are self-replicating nanobots to serve in the place of those billions.

- Badtux the Futurist Penguin

Comrade Misfit said...

I don't recall any mention of nanotech on BSG. Other than spacecraft with the ability to execute FTL jumps, their technology doesn't seem to be that much advanced over ours.

Jim said...

Another angle to what badtux said (again I haven't seen the show) is that they were developed enough to create the Cylons they do have pretty high level cybernetic technology.

There are projects even now (http://reprap.org/bin/view/Main/WebHome) to have home open source 3d printers (no nanotech involved). What's to say that this could developed to the stage of IC fabs and metal fabrication.

The Cylons are self-reproducing so why couldn't the humans have non-self aware versions of the same sort of machines.

See the James Hogan book "Voyage from Yesteryear" about a viable colony that developed this way and some fun economics that fell out of it.

Comrade Misfit said...

Until the Cylons attacked, the Colonials didn't know that the Cylons had developed biologic technology, they were strictly mechanical/electronic entities.

Mark Rossmore said...

Interesting post. I hadn't really thought about the lack of farming animals and how that would play out in their future colony.

Well, they could always capture one of the Cylon resurrection ships, keep it in orbit over the new human colony, and use its "product" as a continual source of protein.

Now THAT would be some turnabout...

Customer 1: "Waiter, I feel like a Six tenderloin tonight. Medium rare. Oh, and put the algae sauce on the side please."
Waiter: "Thank you sir. And for you madam?"
Customer 2: "I'll be having the baked Boomer. It's my new favorite."
Waiter: "Wonderful choices. And may I recommend a lovely bottle of Cavil wine? It's freshly pressed..."

BadTux said...

Jim, we have the technology you're talking about now -- we have computer-controlled machine tools that can make pretty much any mechanical part, and we have programmable logic devices that can be programmed to replace pretty much any electronic part. If we are talking about a voyage of years, I would certainly assume that they'd set off with a plentiful supply of machine tool dies, metal stock, and microchips.

The problem is, eventually your dies wear out and you run out of PLD's and microchips. Then, if you're still in space, you die.

Regarding protein supply, I assume that these ships must have a garden of some sort with high-protein variants of plants. You can't carry years worth of food on a ship no matter how big the ship is. The challenge will be to get them to grow in the soil of whatever planet they go to ground on, which is non-trivial -- plants are part of an entire ecosystem including soil organisms and things like earthworms that aerate and enrich the soil.

Now, I'm not sure that spaceships capable of multi-year voyages could even exist without at least some limited form of nanotechnology -- the problems we have building our own space stations, which are resupplied regularly from the ground, should be telling there. On the other hand, I suppose that they could have considered nanotechnology too dangerous a technology to carry on the ships with them, always assuming that it would be available at their shipyards at special docks separated from populated areas by vacuum. Either way, as you say, if they have no nanotechnological capability today, they are doomed. That billion-dollar semiconductor plant? Add it up. That's the work of 100,000 people for a year, if you consider all the inputs. 38,000 people simply isn't a big enough core to retain a technological civilization, though unlike you I do not believe they would descend all the way back to the stone age, any more than Western Europeans did after the fall of the Roman Empire destroyed their equivalent of technological civilization. At least some knowledge did survive. Though they had the advantage that their knowledge was in books, not in computers... hmm....

-Badtux the Technological Penguin

mmoxley said...

Hmmm, interesting. To some extent, I would have to agree with the idea that the failing ability to fabricate will hurt the colonist. If you remember when the fleet took on the Pegasus, one of the facts that came out was that the crew of the Pegasus cannibalized some colonist ships and crew for her own use. Their chief mechanic was a civilian and they used parts from other ships to make that ‘shadow ship’ thing.

But here’s the problem. You’re looking at a snapshot of that time. As people realize they need to learn something to keep alive, they will learn that something. They have computers, and I am sure that if they can make a FTL drive, they have a ton of information in those computers. Like ‘how to make a flan/flan cable’. Out of necessity, someone will figure out how to make the flan/flan cable using the directions.

BadTux said...

The problem comes when the computer chips in those computers start to die, and there are no more replacements left. A semiconductor factory requires infrastructure created by millions of people over decades in order to construct it. And you require some high-precision machine tools to build it. If you've already worn out your machine tools creating flan/flan cables, you're SOL until you can figure out how to build more machine tools. Which is *NOT* an easy task, the modern computer-controlled machining center is the result of close to 200 years of work by millions of people.

The basic problem is that with a population base measured in thousands rather than millions we would need self-replicating technology capable of extracting its own natural resources or using biological inputs in order to further a technological civilization, and there's no indication that BSG's ships possess such technology, according to EBM. So if she is correct, then the colonials are going to collapse to pre-industrial conditions within a few decades of landing on a planet, as the microchips wear out in their computers and the machine tools wear out.

Comrade Misfit said...

If we are talking about a voyage of years, I would certainly assume that they'd set off with a plentiful supply of machine tool dies, metal stock, and microchips.

Badtux, the backstory is basically this: A few decades before the current show began, the Colonials and the Cylons fought to a draw. An armistice was negotiated and the Cylons withdrew from human space. At the beginning of the current series, the Cylons executed a massive coordinated first thermonuclear strike on all 12 of the human worlds and, coupled with a computer worm that disabled all modern warships, virtually wiped out the Colonial Fleet.

Battlestar Galactica, which was a relic, was on its way to a museum, with its complement of ancient fighters. It survived because both BSG and its fighters were so old that they did not have the computer tech susceptible to the worm. The Colonial Fleet ships now are comprised of BSG and those merchies with FTL drives which were in space at the time of the attack and those few who made it off the various planets when the attack started. (Merchies without FTL drives were left to be slaughtered by the Cylons.)

The population of the Twelve Colonies went from tens of billions to 50,000 in one day. Due to ongoing battle losses and the debacle of the aborted attempt to settle on New Caprica, they have lost 11,000 people since then.

It is a pickup fleet, certainly not provisioned for prolonged deep space travel.

thedoctor said...

Considering that the cheif managed to build the blackbird from scratch I suspect that a vessel like the galactica would have at the very least limited fabrication plants for rudimentary self repair- for example if a hypothetical battlestar lost its BSG and was severely damaged then the ability to fabricate new components would be vital.
what may happen is a loss of knowledge- they know what happens but they don't know why and end up as machine worshipping savages cf. warhammer 40k.