Words of Advice:

"If Something Seems To Be Too Good To Be True, It's Best To Shoot It, Just In Case." -- Fiona Glenanne

"
Flying the Airplane is More Important than Radioing Your Plight to a Person on the Ground Who is Incapable of Understanding or Doing Anything About It." -- Unknown

"There seems to be almost no problem that Congress cannot, by diligent efforts and careful legislative drafting, make ten times worse." -- Me

"What the hell is an `Aluminum Falcon'?" -- Emperor Palpatine

"Eck!" -- George the Cat

Monday, June 24, 2019

An Indisputable Point

The United States of America runs concentration camps for children.

Before I retired, I handled child neglect cases. I can tell you this with utter certainty: Any parent who treated their kids the way that the Border Patrol has treated those kids would have their kids taken away from them, possibly forever.

Before any defenders of Trump respond, please do me a favor: Go look at yourself in a mirror and ask if you want to go on record defending the use of concentration camps to house children.

25 comments:

B said...

Not defending the treatment of the kids.

But it has been going on since BEFORE Donnie (and yes, it did, it just wasn't reported....I have folks that work in CBP. Kids aren't mistreated, but they don't have enough beds nor the "proper" foods...but they still get meals and still get shelter)

But the media didn't care.

Now they do.."Bcause Trump".

Hardly "concentration camps" though. Food, water, shelter..

And they are still treated better, even though the amount of detainees has more than tripled than they were 5 years ago. It's just that now someone cares to stir people up. Yer being led.

But, double standards, and all that.

re the paragon said...

B. 1. The Obama administration did not have a family separation policy. That has been fact checked and confirmed beyond any reasonable question. If you believe that, you are lying to yourself.

2. And even if Obama did do it, how does that justify Trump's doing it? It is a vile, evil policy. If Obama had started it, Trump could earn the praise and thanks of all decent people by ending the program.

Trump started it, because he is a vile, evil, petty person. To support the policy is evil, evil as nazis.

And claiming "both sides" is a stupid, pathetic excuse.

B said...

It was POLICY during the Obama administration. Fact. Bother to look. Overcome your hate and prejudice and investigate.

I dislike family separation. Doesn't mean that there were not and are not good reasons to do it.

Better we don't have illegal border crossers. A fence would greatly reduce that. Then there'd be no need to incarcerate all those illegals and those children.





re the paragon said...

Check politifact on family separation. It is a Trump program.
They are not illegally here. United States law allows anyone to apply for asylum. Even if their skin is brown. There are NO good reasons for American concentration camps. If it was an Obama program, why was there no concentration camps before? The camps are an affront to everything this nation is supposed to stand for.
A fence will do NOTHING. Most immigrants come in through regular ports of entry. The Border Patrol claims that currently no one can cross unnoticed.
There is no excuse for tearing children away from their families, and sticking them in cages. For a person to think for a moment that such a course of conduct is justifiable , or acceptable, marks that person as a vile human being.

dinthebeast said...

They are concentration camps by everyone's definition except Liz Cheney, who has them confused with death camps, because of course she does.

She took a beating about it on Twitter, which will not harm her one iota.

The cruelty is the point. How many times does he have to tell us that before we believe him?

Taking out your legislative ineptitude on children as a reelection strategy is evil, full stop.

If we can't beat him with this, maybe we don't deserve to win, but those children should not suffer the entirely Republican-made consequences of our shortcomings, having done nothing wrong.

-Doug in Oakland

Nangleator said...

If Obama had concentration camps, you think maybe someone would have said something about that? Perhaps the people that accused him of being a dictator? But, of course not.

Eck! said...

"But they did it!" is the single worst excuse for any damn
thing. Any decent person would stop it not continue it and
advocate for doing it more.

The biggest issue with family separation is its kidnapping.
The parents get deported and the kids get lost in the shuffle
and then what? Now we have kids without parents, that's a
really sound plan . So what do we do with
them of based on the system to them?

No Excuses! It is a bad policy, incomplete policy as it
does not have end point of planned disposition.

Eck!

Comrade Misfit said...

Ascribing motivation to people you do not know is demeaning, B.

For the record, I have been somewhat aggressive in defending your presence here. I had warned commenters who have demeaned you and, at times deleted their posts.

So now I am going to hold you to the same standards. Keep your arguments civil or I will start sanctioning them.

B said...

I accept your rebuke.

However, I have to ask, simply for clarification:

I assume you meant my statement in response to 'Re that Paragon": "Fact. Bother to look. Overcome your hate and prejudice and investigate."
I will agree that that refers to facts not in evidence.
Having said that (if that is what you were referring to), *where is the rebuke* for (him or her) for the statement: " (snip) because he is a vile, evil, petty person."
Does he/she personally know Trump? Or is that different?


Or were you referring to something else I said in comments? If so, perhaps I am missing my transgression. Please explain so I won't do it again.

I am sorry if I violated your rules.

And BTW, to Re the Paragon: Applying for asylum is one thing. Crossing the border beforehand without permission of the US Government *IS* a criminal act.

DTWND said...

B. I don't intend to answer for Ms. Fit, but the difference between the said comments were that one was directed at an individual writing in a comments section and the other was said about a person who voluntarily put himself in the public spotlight. Being a 'celebrity' opens one up to public scrutiny, opinion, and praise/degradation based on their behavior.
Just my two cents.

Dale

Glenn Kelley said...

You can't apply for refugee status from outside the US and you can't legally cross the border to do it . Why not just put up a sign that says "Your Kind Not Welcome Here" .

B, Your fixation on legality seems to keep you from addressing the quality of those laws . Much good has been done in your country by people deifying bad law . Your country was founded on the rejection of the law as it stood .

Glenn

B said...

Do you really believe that most of these folks are here for asylum? If so, then they'd apply instead of working illegally. But they don't (generally) even try util deportation proceedings begin.

You don't, apparently, live in the US. You don't see the colonies of immigrants change and damage neighborhoods...the trash and crime (and spare me the denials....if you claim it doesn't happen, then you've never been to a Hispanic area in the US).

Question: Are you sponsoring hispanic or other illegal border crossers) to live with you?
If every person who approved of illegal immigrants would sponsor, house and feed (and help them assimilate into our society) an immigrant "Family", then we'd not have the issues we do... but y'all don't.

Comrade Misfit said...

I don;t know why those kids are there. It is irrelevant to the point that Customs and Border Protection have been keeping those kids in conditions that are not significantly different from a concentration camp.

Lack of access to sanitation. Sleeping on concrete with mylar blankets. And so on and so forth.

Though it may sound like an unfair comparison, the prisoners in concentration camps (or the Gulag) had bunks. Somali pirates gave their captives soap and toothbrushes.

CBP could have asked for help from people. Saying "oh, we're not sure that we can accept donations" is bureaucratic cowardice.

These are fucking children, dammit.

Show some humanity.

dinthebeast said...

I live in Oakland, B, and I say, from what I've seen in the last 35 years here, that you are mistaken about immigrant communities.
And when Fergus "threatened" to send asylum seekers to "sanctuary cities" our mayor said "All are welcome." So yes, we've officially offered to take them.

-Doug in Oakland

B said...

Odd, it doesn't improve communities here in the Midwest.

so how many are living at your home?

CenterPuke88 said...

“You don't, apparently, live in the US. You don't see the colonies of immigrants change and damage neighborhoods...the trash and crime (and spare me the denials....if you claim it doesn't happen, then you've never been to a Hispanic area in the US).”

You know, B., that’s exactly why Texas is such a hellhole...you know no job growth, no companies moving here, rampant violent crime by those nasty Hispanics, etc...

I have news for you, you are simply wrong. The statistics from the same Government that is busy imprisoning these economic, political and crime refugees show that immigrants are a net plus to the places the settle.

It strikes me that you are simply phobic to the increasing minority population, and unwilling to admit that this is how America can evolve and strengthen. Without immigrants, we stagnate and often weaken. There are those who accuse immigrants of not assimilating, but that is generally a factor of the older immigrants, where the young rapidly acculturate and often show drive and development beyond that seen with our general population. The Melting Pot is alive, but we are strangling it of ingredients, much to our mutual loss!

dinthebeast said...

"Odd, it doesn't improve communities here in the Midwest."

Perhaps it would if you treated them better. They are part of the fabric of the community here, and Oakland wouldn't be Oakland without them.

-Doug in Oakland

B said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
B said...

I have no doubt that the legal immigrants are a net plus for the nation. IN fact, it is exactly that reason the the US is one of the most productive and innovative nations in the world.

THat does not change the fact that hispanic immigrant communities have greater amounts of crime, greater trash and general cleanliness issues (and I can only speak to the ones I have seen, so perhaps as you claim, not all) and greatly decreased property values.

Legal immigrants assimilate. Illegals not so much. There is a difference. Please, don't conflate the two.
I am all for LEGAL immigration. I am the descendant of legal immigrants (some of them Hispanic, others european....Some one generation ago). I am the product of that "Melting Pot".

That doesn't change the facts one way or another.

Perhaps you should take a drive into those communities you claim are so nice and see for yourself that which I am discussing.

dinthebeast said...

I have lived in those neighborhoods for years at a stretch, B, the low-income ones because I am poor.
My neighbors right now are mostly Spanish speakers on one side, and mostly Chinese speakers on the other. In both households the children speak more fluent English than the older generation does.
They are solid, contributing members of the community, pay taxes, and both families originally immigrated without documentation, and now contain two generations of US citizens.
This neighborhood would be less in their absence, and not as safe.
And according to statistics, undocumented immigrants commit fewer crimes at every level than documented US citizens, and I have seen those statistics borne out in the places where I have lived.
That doesn't make every immigrant some kind of angel with a glowing halo, but as people who just live and work around the places I have lived since 1984, I feel they are being unfairly demonized for bullshit political reasons, and I am in the habit of sticking up for them like they have for me.

-Doug in Oakland

CenterPuke88 said...

“THat (sic) does not change the fact that hispanic immigrant communities have greater amounts of crime, greater trash and general cleanliness issues (and I can only speak to the ones I have seen, so perhaps as you claim, not all) and greatly decreased property values.”

So, we have documented study after study that proves these are not, in fact, facts...rather, they are your implicit bias reporting to you.

https://crim.sas.upenn.edu/fact-check/do-mexican-immigrants-cause-crime

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6241529/#!po=38.5246

https://www.cato.org/blog/illegal-immigrants-crime-assessing-evidence

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1a72/60288f15ded460af7b506ef0e0cc8330e92c.pdf

https://psmag.com/social-justice/latino-immigration-is-linked-to-a-reduction-in-homicides

In reviewing this data, it’s even clear that ILLEGAL immigrants actually have a reductive effect beyond that of legal immigrants. This factor is more pronounced in communities where police do not enquire about status when investigating crimes or taking reports, as this causes the community to be more open in reporting crime and helping solve crimes.

B said...

CP: Yer delusional.

Seriously. I don't know where you get these cherry picked stats.

Try asking a cop. Or entering such "communities".

OF living in one for a few months.

You'd change your tune.

But don't let reality get in the way of your delusions.

DintheBeast:
Is the community of which you speak mostly illegals? Or are they legal immigrants. Yes, it matters.

dinthebeast said...

I have lived among immigrants both documented and not. For 35 years.


-Doug in Oakland

CenterPuke88 said...

I’m delusional? Cherry-picked stats?

OK, so the police in the DFW Metroplex support NOT asking about immigration status because they get better community relations, prevent more crimes and get better data to solve crimes that happen. Yep, that’s certainly delusional of me...

The Cato Institute, a fine, upstanding hard-left wing place for sure, eh? Let’s see...limited government, free enterprise, free markets and individual liberty...oh, yes, all clearly Hard Left Wing ideas, so delusional that i now know why the Koch’s founded it...

The National Institutes of Health are, of course, we’ll known for all their left leaning studies. I mean, who but leftists would link tobacco (a fine Southern product, employing thousands of children) with health issues...completely delusional...

The University of Pennsylvania is famous for only publishing leftist screeds too...totally delusional am I.

Pacific Standard Magazine, the one link of the four that ties to a genuinely leftist group, but one that has strong credentials on honest reporting, generally tilted to their views.

Glenn Kelley said...

B,
I'm responding to your post on the 26th .
I live in Ontario Canada . I'm 45 min. from the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) . Half the population of the GTA were born outside Canada .I have a subdivision going in across the road from my farm . I know that most of my new neighbours will have a darker skin than I do . Admittedly that wouldn't be hard to do . I expect less trouble than I'd get from a bunch of snowflakes with helicopter parents .

We don't have the Catch -22 of US immigration law that I mentioned above . Refugees can apply for asylum from inside the country .

So your definition of illegal doesn't apply here .

I think we took in more Syrians than Your country did and despite the bitching and whining that comes mostly from my generation it will pay dividends in the future . Every wave of immigration has strengthened this country . I come from refugees from famine and the clearances .

Canada has a points system for economic immigrates . It's based on education wealth and a couple other things . It's a joke . Friends of my daughter were denied permanent resident status . Married couple, ex British military (both), college educated , Both employed ,2 kids ,owned 2 properties . Trump said the US should copy the program a couple months ago .

Second generation refugees do just as well as the second generation economic immigrants .

Your country has a replacement rate of about 1.6 children per woman just like mine and a bulging group of seniors that feel highly entitled to their social security etc . Without those immigrants to pay taxes the burden of those programs will be crippling .

You do know that the number going back south exceeds the number going north .

Glenn