Freddie DeBoer has asked that question and it seems that he really hasn't gotten a coherent answer.
I'm not sure that I know, either. Take two people, A and C. A is trans. How does A being trans affect C? Yes, I know there's the old bugaboo about "men claiming that they are trans are attacking women in the bathrooms." But here's the thing: I read the local police blotter. I have everywhere I've lived. I have read lots of of entries about DUI and robberies and shoplifiting and teachers assaulting students and clergy assaulting kids and guys who were convicted sex offenders assaulting other people and I have never, to my recollection, read of a man claiming that he was trans assaulting a woman in a bathroom.
I'm not saying that it hasn't happened. In a pasta gazillion visits by women to the can, it's happened how many times? As far as I can see, it's so rare that insisting upon that as a justification for anti-trans policies makes about as much sense as expelling Jews because Jews make Passover matzo with the blood of Christian infants.
So unless you can show a massive wave of sex crimes committed by men claiming to be trans, then what's left would seem to me to be nothing other than standard old Mk.1, Mod.0 Christian bigotry.
No Vape Escape
25 minutes ago
27 comments:
What do the trans people want? Simple. They want to completely destroy society.
Daniel, do you have anything other than a bullshit polemic to relate? Anything other than crap you're spewing through an internet connection?
For one thing, it's clear that you're suffering in the reading comprehension department. You answered an unasked question, while ignoring the one that was asked.
What do the trans people want? To destroy society. Ipso facto the anti trans people would want to SAVE society. It's apparent that logical thinking is not your forte. There isn't a damn thing wrong with my comprehension. Here's your sign.
The anti-trans people want another convenient scapegoat with little ability to fight back, now that gay people don't fulfill that function for them any more.
-Doug in Sugar Pine
For many it's all politics. Since they have no worthy policies to present to the people their only recourse is to stir up hate. They have to change the targets occasionally to keep their base enraged. they put stiff out there with no proof because they know the gullible will never do any actual fact checking looking for proof. It's been done for thousands of years. The Huns,pagans Jews, Christians, liberals, Muslims, the Devil, ghosts, Intellectuals, Gauls, Indians, Papists or just some bad Juju. Anything to cover what they are really doing, not for the people but for themselves.
Not everyone subscribes to the metaphysical, faith-based belief that there is some intangible inner essence beyond physiology that determines whether one is male or female.
That said, women should at least be entitled to women-only private spaces, should they not?
Daniel, so you flip it from "trans people want to destroy society" to "anti-trans people want to save society", with zero explanation as to why you think that trans people want to destroy society.
I suspect you've never known anyone who is trans. I suspect you're just another right-wing troll.
There are lots of other places that you can go to spread your bigotry and hatred. Not here.
Daniel,
What are they doing to achieve that?
Destroying society helps them how?
Do you have an argument?
Is it just your having the feels?
I think he (it dani a he?) that's just tossing mud
as a wanna be conservative that now has this topic
renting space in his head... pwnd!
Eck!
Motor Boat, I asked that people show me the problem.
What is your proposal? Are you going to have bathroom cops to stop anyone they don't think is sufficiently feminine? Are you going to do like Florida, where anyone who can't produce a birth certificate gets convicted of a felony?
Maybe not you, but funny how conservatives are all protective about women in a bathroom, but when it comes to women with high-risk pregnancy, they're insisting that women have one foot in the grave before being treated. They're insisting that ten-year-olds bear the children of their rapists or incestuous relatives.
But the bathroom? That's different.
Still, as far as I can see, there's no real problem, just another marginal group that conservatives hate. They've gone underground with their hatred to Blacks and Jews, they've finally figured out that they're losing the younger adults with their crusade against gays, so now they've going after an even smaller group.
The song is the same, the subject changes.
Boat...
Its only women? Why?
So you know female to male exists as well.
What if it was a transman, is men's space also special?
First a polemic.. then straw-person...
A question was asked and the responses are as Freddie Deboer
also got. Your comments are not answer in any way shape of
form. They seem to reflect hate spew.
Eck!
Motor Boat, I was under the impression that every multi person woman’s bathroom already had multiple woman only spaces, much like the men’s room. Have you ever been to a gym? The “family changing room” has a mixed area with individual stalls for toilets/changing, haven’t seen reports of assaults in those, have you? I don’t hear demands from female (or male, for that matter) patrons for a single sex family changing room, do you?
Here’s the reality: 1) A predator can access restrooms current regardless of laws, and is violating the law already 2) These hatefully written laws simply cause individuals with agendas to challenge anyone who doesn’t completely conform to their preconceived idea of appearance 3) These complaints and challenges take limited police and security resources from other issues.
In some other countries, attendants and custodians in bathrooms can commonly be of differing genders to the patrons of the facility, yet there is no assault problem or complaint of a lack of “X only spaces”, how is America different?
Misfit, it's simple. Women should be allowed to call out obviously male people who try to enter a women's bathroom, without being branded as bigots. As was the case until about five minutes ago.
And it's not just bathrooms, either. It's rape shelters, changerooms, spas, hospital wards, anywhere women should have a reasonable expectation of being free of the male gaze. Until five minutes ago, that is.
A man's quasi-spiritual belief that he is a woman does not make it so, much less entitle him to other people's acquiescence in that belief.
As for Eck's question about transmen, these people are women, and males aren't generally threatened by women.
Boat,
As a women you are a male injecting yourself into my space. Who
gave you permission to do that?
You freely do what you claim others do, are you not male?
Is that an assertion of male privilege?
Last I checked no one said I can't call out someone
misbehaving in the bathroom.
Male gaze, do you have lustful looks at women?
Maybe its a projection of your behavior, your own loaded
question?
And why five minutes ago? You suddenly woke?
Sounds like the question is really when did the business
of others become your business?
How does another person you do not know limit you?
How do they prevent you from doing, and what?
Eck!
https://transequality.org/issues/resources/transgender-people-and-bathroom-access
https://transequality.org/issues/resources/frequently-asked-questions-about-transgender-people
Eck, on the topic of "business of others", since when did belief in the intangible essence you call gender become mandatory? You might as well expect other people and society at large to make allowances for your belief in a soul, or reincarnation. How is "gender" any different from these things?
You can believe it all you want, but last time I checked, we still live in a supposedly secular society.
“What do the trans people want?”
Well, if they’re in the bathroom, I expect they want to pee. That’s generally what people in bathrooms want.
Boat,
You have to answer that for yourself. You do not have to
believe in anything but imposing your views or prying into
others is intrusive. Think live and let live.
From what I've seen and people I know being left to do things
normal in life is the core of freedom. Oppression is the
mirror of that.
As to a secular society, some members are, some are not. Its
an observation that there those that are not secular in seem
to present the problem.
Eck!
Motor, so you want to push your religious views on everyone else?
There was very little legal discrimination against trans people until the Christian Taliban and the GOP needed someone new to hate. Maybe two or three jurisdictions didn't amend birth certificates. Change your name, have the requisite surgery and every state I'm aware of issued new drivers licenses.
But now, the haters are doing everything they can to make life harder for transpeople. And yes, it's nothing but hate masquerading as morality.
“I suspect you've never known anyone who is trans. I suspect you're just another right-wing troll.”
Actually, it's entirely possible that ol' danielbarger has met or even knows someone who is trans but just didn't realize it.
One could argue that Republicans want to prohibit treatment for minors because it’s confusing to the child molesters within their ranks, but that’s playing to stereotypes…which is, incidentally, exactly what these kind of attacks are based upon to.
To me, anyone who believes that can “tell” a certain person is “real a boy/girl/man/woman” based upon stance/build/appearance/features is a moron. It’s simply not possible, given the variability of humans (and also because there are already those who were born with both traits and were assigned one or the other way at birth due to a system that demanded such). As has been said before, an internal threat is necessary to split the voters attention away from what they are doing, this is the most recent example as the Conservatives seeks to polarize and fragment the ones they wish to rule rather than represent.
Misfit, I have no religious views to impose upon anyone.
I am an atheist. I do not believe in this magical essence you call gender, for the exact same reason I do not believe in dieties, the afterlife or souls.
And unless and until you can prove that gender (as opposed to sex) is any more real than a soul, you're not going to convince me or any other honest person that a man should be allowed to "identify" his way into a women's space.
Motor Boat, since you have just effectively stated that anybody who disagrees with you is not honest, then I can't think of a single thing to say to you except this:
Good day, sir.
I usually just lurk here and agree with you about 90% of the time, but trans ideology is where I must differ (I agree with Infidel753 on this issue) It has become a belief system rather than a rights issue. Let me explain myself: true transgender people with genuine dyphoria (estimated at less than 1% of the population) have special needs that absolutely need to be addressed aka rights. I am not concerned about them. They just want to live their lives without making waves.
I have a problem with idealogues who want to disregard the concerns of those of us who think that single-sex spaces and activities are important. I have a problem with allowing obvious male perverts (not genuine trans) to just call themselves women and march into women and girls' spaces (rape crisis centers, spas, hospital wards, lesbian dating sites, women's sororities, etc)...which is what is happening in Europe and Canada. I have a problem with pronoun police saying I have to say ma'am to an obvious male or I'm a bigot. I have a problem with violent male criminals saying they're suddenly trans and being transferred into women's prisons....which is what is happening in Europe, Canada, and California. I have a problem with male athletes in female sports (as a biologist, this is beyond ridiculous to me since males have always had an inherent physical advantage over females)....USA women's boxing will now allow biological males to compete, women's cycling is being dominated by males, and numerous examples have been shown in swimming, track, and weight-lifting. A trans MMA fighter (Fallon Fox) cracked the skull of a female competitor...when a woman is finally killed, will you care then?
I have a problem with the lack of study on gender dyphoria in children. I have seen studies that show many dysphoric children have co-morbidities like previous psychological trauma, bi-polar disorder, ADHD, and autism that get disregarded. Right now it appears that if you simply don't conform to rigid sex stereotypes, you MUST have been born in the wrong body and MUST be PERMANENTLY medicalized and turned into the opposite gender. I have a problem with non-conforming kids (who most likely might have just grown up gay) being treated like freaks and not allowed to simply be different. I have a real problem with potentially gay kids being mistreated.
Most of the explanations I have given refer to purported transwomen. Transmen don't pose a physical threat to biological males althought I have heard of some instances of transmen trying to intrude in male spaces like gay retreats. An example that strikes close to home for me: a boy pretending to be female went into a girls' bathroom and beat up 2 girls...this was in my daughter's high school. Women and girls instinctively recognize that many (not all, don't call me sexist) males can and do pose a potential threat to females and we must be allowed to protect ourselves. Men who enter women's spaces should be kicked out by authorities/management.
I apologize for the long post. I genuinely feel bad for people who hate their own bodies so much that they want to mutilate themselves to become something they are not and never will be. But when idealogues become so aggressive that if you don't comply with their demands that they become violent (yes, there have been instances in Europe and Australia), I have to push back. I will never believe that transwomen are women and transmen are men and you can't force me to. It doesn't make me a bigot. It is simply the truth.
Laura,
How many transgendered people do you personally know? How many have you worked with?
Boat,
To flip things a bit. What do the ANTI-Trans people want?
Simple answer power. A bit more detailed, power to say what
is true according to them or within their belief system.
They want is anyone that is not like them or nonconforming
to their eyes or ears is dishonest, profane, or worse.
If there is a key item from your comment you want proof of
something that for most all cases is its their belief, not
yours.
I use the same pattern to dissect your beliefs. You claim
your atheist. What if I say I don't believe you? At first
glance I've already put forth the premise that I can't
take you at your word. The next challenge is disprove
the unprovable.
There we go you are now in the spot of proving what you
believe is something I should or what I believe in you
should. To me its both unimportant and in my day
nothing of significance. That's for the case of live
and let live. How would it be if I started by saying,
I will pray for you and your soul. That's also
judgmental and outside the idea of live and let live.
Its even a hint at imposing a belief. Needless to say,
why expend time and effort trying to invade or disprove
someones life or beliefs.
To end what is your goal, what you are trying to achieve?
Answer, it a private and personal question and I have no
need to know as we are not associates, friends or even
remotely, gasp, intimate. That is what they want to
impose their questions and their idea of the right answer
on people they don't know haven't met and likely will not
even know of if they walked by.
Eck!
LauraB,
As a biologist... answer this.
Remove the source of testosterone (or estrogen for F to M)
substitute the required alternate hormone Esotrogen how long
before a male can no longer perform to his prior level?
Since knows this as men that have lost their junk to disease
or war and women that have total oophorectomy develop problems
like loss of bone mass, muscle degenration and the like.
We can all cite cases that for the whole are exceptions.
But in the end sports of the non competitive level are
being disrupted and oddly womens sports to a greater extent.
AS to the psyc level stuff, there is some of that. However
before they do hormones or more invasive stuff the usual work
is to get past the trauma if only for suicide prevention.
That means a large amount of work to understand what if
anything was going on. After all its hard to be a happy
and successful person while also transitioning from one
gender to another. The latter does not fix everything
only one specific thing and if applied on a whim could
break things more. With that there are those that apply
money to problems and get the wrong result and also
those that would take the money but, on the large there
are actual standards of care with gates and how to
progress.
For those criminals and perverts all of the prohibitions make
them still criminals and perverts. They do what they do,
then become politicians.
Eck!
People:
This is a comment thread. Not a screed thread. Long dissertations about anything are a Rule 2.D violation.
Please keep it reasonably short and to the point.
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